Winwick Graves - Two Breadths

[Steven]

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I split these posts out of another thread, as they seemed to be able to support a thread of their own
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Ok, for anyone that might know, here's a question, on gravestones, particulaly concerning those at Winwick Church, what do these words mean

Two Breadths

or

Two Breaths

or

2 Breaths

While hunting therough the inscriptions, i find this on loads of the older gravestones, what does it mean.


Steven Dowd

[She]

How deep they are - as in how many more bodys they will take. If I am wrong I will stand corrected.

[Kirsty]

Hi All,

I'd wondered that about Winwick, St. Oswald myself. Could it have to do with the breadth of a plot? Like a double width grave or two joined plots next to each other?

Hmmm, I'll have a ponder over this one.

TTFN, Kirsty

P.S. I think your mum is spot on with Henry VIII being a reference to your Henry being the 8th son born. It must of got tricky to come up with names once you'd got to your 8th son. Imagine if they'd been using middle names as well ...

P.P.S. Sheila, we're typing at the same time again

[bob]

Sorry if this sounds daft, as this area isn't my cup of tea so to speak,
but wouldn't that mean side by side, 2 a breast sounds very much like it,
and that is a saying i have heard many a time, maybe its a rude variation of breadth,
i have a picture of one of my own past family graves where 2 are laid side by side, maybe that was common 100 years ago and beyond.
Bob

[Steven]

I thought that, but on some of the graves, there are three or four people, and some there is only one, and it might say

Fred Night

1780 - 1843

His 2 Breaths

sometimes it might just be one person and have the name alone,

fred Night

Two Breadths

It seems that its more than one person who is carving the stones over maybe 100+ years and they are spelling whatever they are carving just slightly different, but what do they mean?

Steven Dowd

[Kirsty]

Just looked at a transcript of some 16th and 17th century St. Oswald burials and there is no mention of the "two breadth/breath" in the burial registers. Hmmm...

Still thinking, K

[She]

It IS to do with how many bodies the grave will take. I recall doing some research into this many many years ago re the Winwick site. I can't exactly recall why it was termed as a breadth - which like Bob says tends to suggest width rather than depth. There is a reason for it being termed this way, shame I can't recall what and why. I will see if I can find the forum this was discussed on.

[She]

OK - found the forum now (on UKGEN) -

A breadth is (1) a measure or dimension from side to side of something, as distinguished from length or thickness. (2) An extent or piece of something, usually conforming to a standard width. eg " I swam a breadth of the pool". (3) Wide extent or scope or (4) Freedom from narrowness, as of views or interests. So if this is applied to a grave, the bodies would be side by side, either two or three abreast, which is how a lot of the old graves are, especially in family plots.

I had no idea that they buried people side by side sometime....

[Kirsty]

I thought that, but on some of the graves, there are three or four people, and some there is only one, and it might say

Fred Night

1780 - 1843

His 2 Breaths

sometimes it might just be one person and have the name alone,

Fred Night

Two Breadths

It seems that its more than one person who is carving the stones over maybe 100+ years and they are spelling whatever they are carving just slightly different, but what do they mean?

Hi Steven and All,

I've been having a think about this one and have a couple of theories...

I've got transcripts of the MI's at St. Peter in Parr and I've also got the grave book records. What's on a headstone can't always be taken for granted. Here's an example;

A plot is purchased and a single individual is buried in the plot. A headstone is erected to remember the individual. Time passes and further family members are buried in the same plot but for whatever reason (money perhaps) no further details are added to the headstone. Here is one example but there are many more for Parr, St. Peter (grave book record in blue, MI in red):

Grave purchased by Mr WILLIAMS
MARY ELIZABETH WILLIAMS 1 May 1897 30 yrs
ISAAC WILLIAMS 5 May 1951 86 yrs
[center]MARY ELIZABETH WILLIAMS
27 April 1897 aged 31 yrs[/center]
When Isaac William died and was buried with Mary Elizabeth Williams no extra information was added to the headstone so it appears the only occupant of the grave is Mary Elizabeth which is not correct.

My second theory is; Are the headstones in their original locations? Around St. Oswald's are a lot of headstones laid flat to form a path. I also think part of the original graveyard had its stones lifted as the area with headstones is tiny and the amount of people buried at St. Oswalds is very large. Maybe the layout of the graveyard doesn't make sense because the stone are not in their original location. Hmm...

More research needed me thinks. Still thinking - Kirsty

[jasper]

Grave Breadths--
4or5 years ago i wrote to the vicar of St Oswalds regarding a particular family gravestone. The details of which i found transcribed in my local library. The Vicar passed my correspondence to Eric Runcorn who i believe is a local historian?. He explained this meaning -BREADTHS - it is definately the amount of persons a grave can take--in depth. Needless to say i never found my actual family gravstoneas it is

under the M6 motorway

What i did find however was the gravestone of my Great Grandfather on one side and another family name on the other side(completley unrelated). Neither the Vicar or Eric Runcorn could explain this-- neither had seen this before, but felt sure this was the reason the stone had been preserved and not used as landfill-- albeit the stone has been moved from its original burial place!!!
The transcription for this grave in Library records

1 person BREADTH

though there are actually 3 persons in the grave. Has anyone any thoughts on the double sided inscriptions? 1st Date for my family is 1869--to the last internment 1921

Jasper

[Kirsty]

Hi Jasper,

An interesting post. I had figured the original graveyard to St. Oswald must have shrunk over the years but I'd never considered there had been burials where the M6 now is - shocking !

J = I hope you don't think I'm being dense but can I just clarify a point with you? Are you saying there is a single headstone which has an inscription on the front AND on the back?

Best Wishes, Kirsty

[jasper]

Hi Kirsty Regarding the churchyard at St Oswalds-- i dont actually think there are old graves under the M6. The explanation given to me was

During late 50s/early 60s a great many of the graves were so old and unattended letters were sent to the last known address of relatives to ask if they wished for the graves to be maintained. If no reply was received the headstones / kerbs etc were removed and used as landfill for the building / extention of the M6

, most of these graves were on the A49 side of the graveyard-- which is now grassed over.

The particular gravestone i was looking for was a marble cross and kerb
(info found in library) This had been removed and used as landfill-- the other gravestone belonging to my family-- is definately inscribed on both sides, ( the other family name eludes me right now--but i have details somewhere.) This has also been removed from the A49 side of the churchyard and repositioned on the left hand side of the Newton Road gate, probably not destroyed as it is so very unusual, that was the explanation i was given--- it is now very difficult to read of course.

The amazing thing about this is-- how many relatives would be at the last known address-- given the age of some of these graves-- i didnt even know where my ancestors lived let alone where they were buried!!!
This apparently happend all over the country and i certainly know it happend in another local cemetary/graveyard-- again i was looking for a family gravestone-- i dont know what it might have filled!!

[Kirsty]

Hi Jasper,

I'm completely with you now. Headstones used as land fill - still shocking (and such a terrible shame) !

A single stone inscribed on both sides does sound unusual. Could it have been to reduce cost? Having an already standing stone inscribed rather than buying a new stone? From today's point of view it does sound rather 'green' to use only the one stone. Or could it have been the mason made a mistake? I'm not sure there will be a definitive answer to this one. I'd be interested to know what the two inscriptions read and the dates and so on...

Best Wishes, Kirsty

[Kirsty]

Hi All,

I'm typing from my mum & dad's in Newton. On the way here I stopped at Winwick, St. Oswald and took a few photos of some of the '2 breadth' headstones. I also found the double-sided headstone Jasper refers to above.

Jasper = If you'd like to PM me your e-mail address I can e-mail you the photos (tis' OK if you don't want to though).

When I get home and feed and water my household I'll up-load the photos onto my PC and post my findings. I can just posts transcripts unless anyone would like to see the odd image?

Hope the photos turn out OK. It was really cold and wet and I just dashed around the graveyard and selected a few relevant headstones at random.

Also, keeping to the gravestone theme...

From this thread we've learnt some of the St. Oswald headstones were used as landfill when the M6 was being laid. In an earlier thread looking at the MI's for Wargrave Emmanuel I posted that some of the discarded headstones from said church ended up being broken-up (if not already broken) and used as garden furniture (walls, rockeries and so on..) in local gardens. Well, I was having a nosey through my dad's garden and found a piece of headstone from Emmanuel where you can still see some of the inscription.

I'll post more on this later this evening.

Best Wishes, Kirsty

[Kirsty]

Hi All,

Here is a gravestone with "2 Breadths" inscribed:

[center]1804
James and Mary
Hamer of Newton
2 Breadths[/center]


And here is a broken piece of headstone found in my dad's garden (originally from Wargrave, Emmanuel):

At the top of the stone you can see the letters "Bel...", which presumably would have read Beloved and in the middle you can see the last two letters of a person's name, "PH" (possibly Joseph) and a "&".

Here is a picture of a wall in my dad's garden made of broken Emmanuel headstones. Just in case you're wondering all the inscriptions are face down and cannot be read:


When my parents moved into their house about 27/28 years ago there was a large rockery in the back garden. When my dad began to work in the back garden he discovered the "rocks" were in fact large pieces of broken-up headstones. At the time I remember us trying to read the stones and make sense of the inscriptions. Eventually the stones got made into walls in my parent’s garden.

TTFN, Kirsty